SCARY Inexplicable Elevation Changes

[aquaticrobotic]

I've caught this on three or four different occasions now. I have my stakeout descriptors setup to show Point Number, Descriptor, and Cut / Fill. As you can see below in store point # 1716, I shot the hub at an elevation of 359.8639. The descriptor of this line shows a CUT 359.68. It appears that the 359.8639 got transposed to 359.68. All my design points have an elevation of 0.
I'm wondering how often this is actually occurring and if it could be happening with just normal topo shots?
This is scary and needs addressed.



1700,280712.9656,2361960.9883,357.5212,1146 4+00 CUT 357.52
1701,280718.2225,2361975.0659,357.0354,1147 4+15BVC CUT 357.04
1702,280730.4651,2362007.8445,356.7314,1148 4+50 CUT 356.73
1703,280747.9926,2362054.6929,356.1812,1149 5+00 CUT 356.18
1704,280803.2699,2362087.3977,354.6914,1183 5+50 CUT 354.69
1705,280785.7461,2362040.5620,356.2112,1182 5+00 CUT 356.21
1706,280768.2623,2361993.6903,356.9579,1181 4+50 CUT 356.96
1707,280755.9996,2361960.9356,357.4849,1180 4+15BVC CUT 357.48
1708,280750.7602,2361946.8807,357.7083,1179 4+00 CUT 357.71
1709,280733.2119,2361900.0721,358.2007,1178 3+50 CUT 358.20
1710,280725.7551,2361880.1440,358.4388,1177 3+28.74PT CUT 358.44
1711,280720.3460,2361864.5896,358.6761,1176 3+11.35CLHCP CUT 358.68
1712,280717.1434,2361854.2573,358.7582,1175 3+00 CUT 358.76
1713,280711.1463,2361831.2939,358.9959,1174 2+75 CUT 359.00
1714,280706.6533,2361807.9918,359.3460,1173 2+50 CUT 359.35
1715,280703.5532,2361784.4569,359.6269,1172 2+25 CUT 359.63
***1716,280701.9611,2361760.7892,359.8639,1171 2+00 CUT 359.68****
1717,280701.8416,2361737.0689,359.5112,1170 1+75 CUT 359.51
1718,280703.2530,2361713.3206,360.8280,1169 1+50 CUT 360.83
1719,280706.0644,2361689.7420,360.8893,1168 1+25 CUT 360.89
1720,280710.4250,2361666.4579,360.9274,1167 1+00 CUT 360.93
1721,280713.0003,2361655.2896,361.0000,1166 0+87.93PT CUT 361.00
1722,280722.1839,2361618.4496,361.2462,1165 0+50 CUT 361.25
1723,280723.1550,2361614.3087,361.3111,1164 0+45.72PT CUT 361.31
1724,280684.0947,2361604.5335,360.8808,1131 0+45.72PT CUT 360.88
1725,280683.0062,2361608.7027,360.7809,1132 0+50 CUT 360.78
1726,280673.8626,2361645.4953,360.7030,1133 0+87.93PT CUT 360.70
1727,280670.9417,2361657.8527,360.7449,1134 1+00 CUT 360.74
1728,280666.1737,2361683.6714,360.9781,1135 1+25 CUT 360.98
1729,280663.0614,2361709.7537,360.5720,1136 1+50 CUT 360.57
1730,280661.5272,2361735.9661,360.1449,1137 1+75 CUT 360.14
1731,280661.6869,2361762.2207,359.8583,1138 2+00 CUT 359.86
1732,280663.4499,2361788.3911,359.1334,1139 2+25 CUT 359.13
1733,280666.7957,2361814.4300,359.3186,1140 2+50 CUT 359.32
1734,280912.3965,2362443.3924,342.1911,1216 2+75 CUT 342.19
1735,280927.2813,2362460.2000,342.5817,1217 3+00 CUT 342.58
1736,280939.1791,2362477.5929,342.2965,1218 3+23.41PT CUT 342.30
1737,280952.9314,2362500.2957,342.9618,1219 3+50 CUT 342.96
1738,280978.8470,2362543.0563,343.5551,1220 4+00EVC CUT 343.56
1739,281004.7310,2362585.8544,344.4009,1221 4+50 CUT 344.40
1740,281030.7010,2362628.5980,345.1944,1222 5+00BVC CUT 345.19
1741,281049.0715,2362658.9618,345.9123,1625 5+35.50 CUT 345.91
1742,281056.3157,2362670.9625,345.3621,1626 5+49.50 CUT 345.36
1743,281056.6303,2362671.3843,345.1736,1223 5+50 CUT 345.17
1744,281071.8152,2362696.5735,346.6214,1224 5+79.43 CLHCP CUT 346.62
1745,281013.3481,2362522.1689,344.1966,1271 4+00EVC CUT 344.20
1746,280959.1223,2362435.4456,343.3399,1268 3+00 CUT 343.34
1747,280688.6306,2362430.7724,342.0111,WV
1748,280711.5529,2362506.8931,338.1723,H2O SLEEVE
1749,280696.8332,2362409.1815,342.0871,WV
1750,280716.7337,2362402.3775,344.0256,WV
1751,280715.9565,2362400.0492,342.4314,FH
1752,280744.2819,2362412.3915,342.5714,SL
1753,280752.5146,2362410.3053,342.6381,WL
1754,280751.0414,2362397.8067,342.6353,CS
1755,280799.5098,2362394.0067,342.1720,GL
1756,280828.1220,2362394.6017,341.6964,WV
1757,280847.2075,2362381.6825,341.8718,WV
1758,280855.2143,2362402.2271,341.9605,WV
1759,280868.3806,2362411.4155,342.1211,CS
1760,280860.8066,2362420.9634,341.4997,WL
1761,280870.4459,2362429.7571,341.6970,SL
1762,280889.0340,2362424.9909,341.6107,GL
1763,280917.3096,2362455.3502,342.1886,EL
1764,280946.6651,2362517.0768,343.4841,SL
1765,280959.8657,2362512.1444,342.9857,GL
1766,280960.4918,2362520.3971,343.3879,CS
1767,280950.1324,2362526.9310,343.3961,WL
1768,280958.3229,2362537.6500,343.9570,SL
1769,280973.1211,2362541.0433,343.3152,CS
1770,280975.2019,2362544.3280,343.4210,CS
1771,280963.0597,2362548.2600,343.6449,WL
1772,280965.3501,2362551.7375,343.3521,WL
1773,280970.0359,2362557.5748,344.1264,SL
1774,280980.5624,2362551.4997,344.0440,GL
1775,280990.1705,2362560.5411,345.5658,WV
1776,280992.5581,2362559.3618,344.1297,FH
1777,280982.6979,2362578.1113,344.7017,SL
1778,280987.2773,2362588.2173,344.5899,WL
1779,280989.0888,2362591.5054,344.4660,WL
1780,280996.5962,2362598.4391,344.6829,SL
1781,281004.6342,2362591.7325,343.9090,GL
1782,280999.7518,2362585.5070,344.0449,CS
1783,280997.8635,2362582.1564,344.0913,CS
1784,281007.7931,2362620.1268,345.1734,SL
1785,281012.4042,2362630.6141,345.1263,WL
1786,281014.2126,2362633.3815,345.5903,WL
1787,281020.2178,2362639.2254,345.5140,SL
1788,281024.6344,2362626.7575,344.9937,CS
1789,281022.6843,2362623.0094,344.4731,CS
1790,281057.9962,2362702.9795,348.1446,SL
1791,281071.6817,2362724.6147,347.8323,SL
1792,281083.3393,2362745.9474,347.6883,SL
1793,281094.3432,2362765.6071,348.0542,SL
1794,281108.4033,2362786.2263,348.1182,SL
1795,281175.2424,2362761.8735,347.0998,SL
1796,281162.4420,2362742.1264,350.1813,SL
1797,281149.7805,2362720.7420,350.3239,SL
1798,281138.6271,2362700.9769,349.1257,SL
1799,281082.5530,2362668.0700,347.4445,MHS
1800,281075.0584,2362596.0946,344.8333,SL
1801,281063.0514,2362575.7923,345.6572,SL
1802,281062.7511,2362585.6432,344.8115,WL
1803,281064.5919,2362589.7235,344.7288,WL
1804,281053.7974,2362595.9428,344.9667,CS
1805,281051.9272,2362592.6052,344.8460,CS
1806,281043.3759,2362571.6837,344.5016,GL
1807,281050.6715,2362555.2166,345.4801,SL
1808,281039.9883,2362548.1486,344.4333,WL
1809,281037.7231,2362544.8463,344.0616,WL
1810,281028.7706,2362554.2846,344.0101,CS
1811,281026.1002,2362551.0034,344.3958,CS
1812,281037.0993,2362534.0830,344.5447,SL
1813,281019.7725,2362529.7801,343.9650,GL
1814,281025.8903,2362513.5676,345.1717,SL
1815,281014.3391,2362506.4187,343.6206,WL
1816,281012.1339,2362503.8832,343.6154,WL
1817,281013.6582,2362493.1025,344.2192,SL
1818,281003.7482,2362513.3267,343.4965,CS
1819,281001.4797,2362510.0380,343.0165,CS
1820,280989.4080,2362489.6725,343.4913,CS
1821,280994.9026,2362488.9335,343.3715,GL
1822,280999.5825,2362483.6683,344.1595,WL
1823,280999.0428,2362469.9848,344.9283,SL
1824,280958.7653,2362426.9358,343.6542,EL
1825,280939.6169,2362431.1644,342.4848,MHS
1826,280928.5323,2362408.0999,342.0380,CS
1827,280936.5846,2362397.6605,343.6911,WL
1828,280932.8737,2362387.8759,345.0787,SL
1829,280917.2364,2362390.7039,342.6245,GL
1830,280819.2371,2362360.9400,342.2082,MHS
1831,280853.9117,2362351.4366,341.9754,EL
1832,280814.6570,2362342.3931,342.8876,EL
1833,280802.2832,2362351.0554,342.5531,GL

[site admin]

For an issue such as this, please copy the comment and email it to us directly so we can look into it at support@carlsonsw.com. Also, instead of pasting all of the point info into the email, please attach your .crd file or a text file. Thank you.

[aquaticrobotic]

You've got mail.


THANK YOU for your attention to this matter.

[tstrickland]

So, did you guys figure out what the problem was?
Is is a software glitch?

[site admin]

aquaticrobotic,

We have not recieved any emails yet for this. What was the subject line so we can do a search? Thank you.

[aquaticrobotic]

SUBJECT: Inexplicable Elevation Change

I didn't have a subject in the email yesterday. I just resent the email with the subject line above.


Again, thank you for your attention to this matter.

Andrew Collier

[aquaticrobotic]

Did you receive the email?

[aquaticrobotic]

Thanks for letting me know that you have received the email.

Has anyone come up with an explanation as to what may have occurred?

Thanks so much for your attention to this matter and your excellent customer service!

[aquaticrobotic]

I have had a response from Tech Support about this matter. I realize that others in the community may be wondering about my issue so I'll post the correspondence that we've had thus far below.

It's via email so read from bottom to top or you may get confused




Romica

Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Just to give you a little more information, I'm using a Topcon Hiper Pro Base/Rover setup and an Juniper Allegro CX data collector with SurvCE 2.09 loaded.

Unfortunately I do not have the CRD file associated with this issue. I never keep CRD files, only RAW and exported TXT point files.

I'm still not sure I quite understand your explanation of the issue. I'm confused by "because maybe the instrument it is faster than the update of the description". Also confused by "user changes something in the edit box (even a character removed at the end, will stop the update)".

Could you please explain these this further?

Thanks, Carlson is the best IMO.

Andrew Collier

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Technical Support <support> wrote:

Hello,

To make sure that we could find an explanation we also need the CRD file:
HAYDN 10-5.crd.

The description at the bottom of the screen updates constantly:
1. It could be not in sync with the actual reading from the instrument:
- because maybe the instrument it is faster than the update of the description.
- the user changes something in the edit box (even a character removed at the end, will stop the update).

Sincerely yours,
Romica Alexandru




Technical Support
Carlson Software
(606) 564-5028
support@carlsonsw.com



-----Original Message-----
From: John Gerber <jgerber>
Reply-To: John Gerber <jgerber>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:48:55 -0400
To: Technical Support <support>
Cc: acollier1976@gmail.com, Brian Harris <bharris>
Subject: RE: (Case 34110) Inexplicable Elevation Change

>Hello,
>
>
>
>Thank you for sending in the sample files along with a detailed description
>of the issue.
>
>
>
>I am not familiar with this issue of the Description for the Cut value not
>matching the values stored in the CRD and the values stored in the cutsheet
>in regards to Version 2.09 used with Topcon GPS in Survey / Stakeout Points.
>
>
>
>I will research this further with the Testing Department and see if they are
>familiar with this issue or have had any other reports of it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--- John Gerber
>
> Tech Support
>
> Carlson Software
>
> jgerber@carlsonsw.com
>
> (606) 564-5028
>
>
>
>PntNo Latitude Longitude Elevation Desc
>
>GPS 1716 40.054308198 -76.203937507 76.7894 1171 2+00 CUT
>359.68
>
> Note
>
>DS GS,PN1716,N 280701.9611,E 2361760.7892,*EL359.8639*,--1171 2+00 *CUT
>359.68*
>
>DS CTSS1:HAYDN 10-5.crd
>
>DS CTSD0:Design Pt#,Design Elv,StakeElv,Cut, Fill,Desc,Stake Pt,Stake
>Nor,
>
>DS CTSD1:Stake Eas,Delta X,Delta Y
>
>DS CTSD0:1171,0.00,*359.86,359.86*,-1.00,1171 2+00 CUT
>359.68,1716,280701.96,
>
>DS CTSD1:2361760.79,0.02,0.01
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Forwarded Message-----
>
>From: Andrew Collier <acollier1976>
>
>Reply-To: Andrew Collier <acollier1976>
>
>Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:30:35 -0400
>
>To: support@carlsonsw.com
>
>Subject: Inexplicable Elevation Change
>
>
>
>I POSTED THE MESSAGE BELOW TO THE http://update.carlsonsw.com BULLITEN
>
>BOARD AND BHARRIS ASKED ME TO SEND IT HERE. PLEASE FIND MY RAW AND
>
>COORDINANTE TXT FILE ATTAHCED.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>THANK YOU FOR YOUR WONDERFUL SUPPORT TEAM AND RESOURCES.
>
>
>
>
>
>I've caught this on three or four different occasions now. I have my
>
>stakeout descriptors setup to show Point Number, Descriptor, and Cut / Fill.
>
>As you can see below in store point # 1716, I shot the hub at an elevation
>
>of 359.8639. The descriptor of this line shows a CUT 359.68. It appears that
>
>the 359.8639 got transposed to 359.68. All my design points have an
>
>elevation of 0.
>
>I'm wondering how often this is actually occurring and if it could be
>
>happening with just normal topo shots?
>
>This is scary and needs addressed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Andrew Collier
>
>
>
>Survey Technician

[aquaticrobotic]

I received the email response below and thought I should post it here to keep the issue up to date.
Thanks again to Carlson's support staff for their rapid response and attention to this matter



Hello,

The description automatically updates at specific intervals: 500ms in the SurvCE case.

If any change happens in the edit box that holds the description happens, the "automatic update" stops until the store completes.

I understand that the CRD does not exist, I would have wanted to check the elevation stored in the CRD for the staked point.

I will submit the bug to the SurvCE driver team for further investigation. We will find the answer.

Thank you for your bug report,
Sincerely yours,
Romica Alexandru






Technical Support
Carlson Software
(606) 564-5028
support@carlsonsw.com

[aquaticrobotic]

It has occurred again

I'm sending the CRD., Raw, and exported text file to you guys over at tech support.

You'll notice that stored point number 1710 has an elevation that differs from the CUT elevation in the description. All my design points are 0 elevation so the cut should reflect the stored elevation.

I'm using Topcon Hiper Pro base/rover setup (5hz Position Rate), Allegro cx running CE version 4.20 with 107576KB RAM-- it's fast.

Please respond to acollier1976@gmail.com

Thanks!
Andrew Collier

[mdriver]

I have had the same issue while using "Elevation Difference" with my Leica 1205, Allegro MX and Surveyor+ GPS. I create TIN files in Civil Suite, make spot elevation checks in Civil Suite (all looks good versus data used to make TIN), go out in the field and get areas that check and areas that simply do not. Up to .5' in some places where the data should be giving nearly cut/fills of 0'. Meaning these are places where actual data is being used (points, 3dpolylines, etc.)

I have consulted with tech support as well and have received the driver lag response as well.

Okay I love the products Carlson puts out BUT we as users and/or licensed professionals are putting faith into their products to give us the correct information. If I give a contractor a cut of 1' and it really is 0' or .5' for example, someone has to pay for the screw up and unfortunetly it's the licensed professional for grading the stake. This could be quite expensive over a large surface area. Not to mention the embarassment we face and the possibility of being fired or never used again. I AGREE, THIS IS A VERY SCARY SITUATION!!!!! If we are to gather data and solve solutions dynamically on the fly, then the driver lag time needs to be ZERO or as close as possible to! I'm not a programmer but do understand the behavior of what it should realistically do. If I am using a routine to find a elevation difference, then I should not be getting solutions from maybe the previous location. The robotic total station, for example, is constantly moving horizontally and vertically updating itself as we move around. The software HAS TO be able to respond at that same rate. If I'm not seeing this in a correct manner, please educate me and the other users that are having his problem. Luckly some of us are actually doing spot checks (quality control measures) out there. If you are a licensed professional, these results could have serious adverse affects on your professional status!!!!

In closing, I (as other users I'm sure) have spent a great deal of time, money and effort to incorporate certain products that pertain to our industry. I demand that this be seriously looked at!!!! We cannot afford to stake areas, bring up the data in the office, hand calculate and go mark grades to make ourselves "comfortable with the results". We should be able to rely on our software to do this.

Thanks,
Mark Driver